With so much going on with the market, it helps to really hold on tightly to the basics of the space before you lose yourself. In this episode, Dan Deppen had a great discussion with someone who has been investing in real estate and notes for a long time. He sits down with Kimberly Banks Fawcett from Note Investing Academy and Diversified Mortgage Expo (DME) to talk about the current COVID-19 situation and how that may affect the note investing industry and the greater economy. Helping newer note investors to learn about the industry, they then discuss how Note Investing Academy gets people in the note game without having to spend tens of thousands of dollars. Kimberly then gives us a peek into the next DME event—aiming to bridge the gap between new and experienced investors—and when and where to expect it as soon as the condition allows.
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How The COVID-19 Is Affecting The Note Investing Industry With Kimberly Banks Fawcett
I’m joined by Kimberly Banks Fawcett. Kimberly, how are you doing?
I’m great. How are you doing, Dan?
I’m good. Thanks so much for joining us here from Note Investing Academy and Diversified Mortgage Expo.
It’s been Distressed for years. We took it over because we wanted to expand it a bit. Before the Coronavirus came around, the mortgage market had changed where there wasn’t as much distressed product so people have to use mortgage skills. Why just focus on distressed mortgage skills? We wanted to broaden it and make everybody smarter.
Maybe talk a little bit more about what that is and what you have scheduled. I don’t know if you have dates planned out. I know it’s hard to schedule events right at the moment.
We’re shooting for the first week in October. We would love to have it in Nashville. That’s our goal. It’s a great city to have an event in. There are other note events out there and no one ever has it any place as fun as Nashville, unless you’ve decided to take it to an island and not many people can show up.
They’ll definitely have a hard time getting there.
Everybody goes, “The tax breaks. You could make it a vacation,” but no one ever does it. We figured Nashville would get people there and I’ve done a ton of research. I’ve heard Nashville is for people that don’t like country music, so I’m using that in my advertising. What we want to do is we want to have new known investors and we want to have experienced known investors. We want to be able to bridge the gap and add value for both types of investors. To help out the newbies, we’re going to do a one-on-one class the night before the event kicks off, where we’ll make sure that everybody understands the general concepts. They certainly won’t be dangerous enough to go out and start buying notes, but they’ll understand what’s going on at the event.
You go to those events to learn, but if you haven’t covered all the basics, you’re going to miss things. We want to make sure that even the newest people will understand what’s going on. We’re going to kick it off with a state of the market address. With so much going on, who knows where the market is right now? I think that’ll help solidify everybody’s understanding of the opportunity that’s coming, whether it’s going to be a huge tidal wave like some people are predicting and hoping or whether it’s going to be lower value distressed product. Everything else is pretty much business as usual. It could run the gamut. It would be great to have everybody on the same page. We’ll go from there with other topics that seem to make sense at that time.
I think that timing might be good because my perception is there’s a lot of uncertainty. I’m having a hard time trying to predict where things are going to be in six months, but by the October timeframe, we should at least have a better idea what direction things are going to head.
If it turns out to be true, that sunlight kills some of it, maybe if we do have a second wave, it’ll be after the summer so things won’t have gotten bad. Again, we can’t predict the economy. We can’t predict what’s happening with the virus.
I guess worst case, you could take it online if you had to.
It will still be valuable information. You don’t get the same networking from an online event, but there are different little tricks you can try. Zoom has this great feature. I don’t know if you’ve ever used it yourself or in some meeting, but you can have breakout rooms on Zoom.
No, I haven’t done that. I’ve hosted webinars on Zoom, but that’s as fancy as I’ve gotten with it.
You can have little breakout groups and as the moderator, you can jump from group to group and see how they’re doing. You can do all kinds of things online now. It wouldn’t be our first choice, but it would still be a good event anyway.
Yeah, that would be good either way. Hopefully, we can all meet up face-to-face and that will be nice too if you can bridge the gap between the people who are brand new and then the people who are more experienced. I’ve gone to some events that catered to newbies and that’s fine, but I ended up not listening to any of the content and just talking to people. I’ve been at other things like IMN, which are great. They’re pretty high-level but if you’re brand new, you wouldn’t get much.
I think we’ll be polling people like you. You’ve been to all the new events and you know what you’re doing. What would you like to see at an event? Sometimes IMN might be a little too high for some people. I went there, I think it was the first IMN I went to, and it was in Dana Point. The guy that was there at the time of the economy was fascinating and he was from one of the federal reserve banks, I’m not sure. I did the thing that I have seen people do and made fun of them all my life. I chased him out of the room when he got off the stage.
I asked him, “Who’s my best data source? I agree with you. I’ve got to look at emerging markets and see what’s changing.” He goes, “I can’t do that.” “Why?” “I’m a government official. It would be like making a recommendation.” “Why are you here?” It’s very strange. It’s not as much hands-on stuff. It’s very interesting and it’s wonderful to get in the heads of the senior people, the people with the $2 billion portfolios. It’s great to listen to him, but I don’t come away with that much actionable stuff, but not actionable stuff, for lack of a better word.
If you haven't covered all the basics, you're going to miss things. Click To TweetI had a similar thing for IMN. I came away with a few tapes and a few good contacts, but some of the stuff was fairly limited in what you could do. Hopefully, you can host it live and everybody can meet up face-to-face. The first time we met at a Note Expo a few years ago, that was when I was getting into notes. I was like, “Before I dive into this, I want to meet all these characters and see what’s going on.” I had a list of people beforehand. You were one of the people on the list that I tracked down, as well as David Putz and some others. How long have you been doing notes? You’ve been at it for quite a while. I know it’s a lot longer than me.
I started out real estate investing three months out of college. I’m not going to tell you what year that is, but it was a while ago. As a landlord, eventually you get tired of fixing things and listening to the tenant complaints. I had this one tenant one time in a duplex we had here outside of Dallas. Every single time we left town to go on vacation, she had a problem. It’s like she had a locator on the car to notice we’d driven more than 30 minutes, “I’m going to have to call you.” It gets old after a while. I was at a big REIA event and you go to all the different meetings and see what people have to talk about and find new ways to do what you’re doing better. I went to my first notes presentation. The idea that I could get the same checks every month and never get any of those stupid phone calls like, “I locked myself out again,” was a light bulb moment. I never turned back. That was 2012-ish and I have loved it ever since.
I bet that was probably a pretty good time to get started, right?
Yeah, it was good but I don’t think those of us getting started around the time realized how good it was. If I could go back and buy more sooner, that would be great. What’s that expression? “The best time to get started would have been yesterday, but the next best is today,” that would have been a great yesterday. My first notes that I bought, I got it 40% of fair market value. I’d love to go back and buy some more.
That would always be nice, but you never know at the time. It’s like with me and in sports and golf. If I knew what I know now, if I could go back to the ‘90s and those other tournaments, I could have done a lot more. Now it’s a lot tougher. Everybody’s stepped things up. It always gets harder as you go. What have you been doing ever since the COVID craziness? Are you still buying things?
I had this problem. I always look at the tapes that I get. I always want to see what’s in there and I always want to check them out. Prices are still a little high now from the seller’s perspective. The buyers realize there are changes coming. There are no guaranteed exits at this point. This could be a fantastic performer and tomorrow they asked for forbearance plan. They’re not going to pay for a year. There’s a lot of discord between buyers and sellers trying to come up with a price. I’m not buying much right now. I’m storing up some cash and getting ready hopefully for some new inventory. It’s going to be interesting to watch. I don’t want to say fun because there are a lot of people suffering out there. I don’t bet against the economy. As we all know, some people are going to make money from this. If that’s true, why not be me? Why not put me in a position where I can help people that are suffering? That’s one of the reasons why I like note investing so much. It’s very rare that you can make money and help people out.
I’ve had so many good conversations with borrowers, but I bought more than one note where it had been lost in the shuffle. I had a bigger fund and the borrower had been wanting to work things out but couldn’t talk to anybody and they were so thankful to do it. I’ve had those flips from non-performer to re-performer overnight and the borrower was happy. It doesn’t happen every time, but it’s happened a lot and it’s nice.
I had one note, it was the second so I didn’t pay much money for it. It wasn’t that it got lost in the shuffle. It kept getting sold over and over again. By the time I got it, as soon as the FCI sent out the hello letter, he was on the phone. He was very excited to get help. It was the last thing that he had to take care of in his divorce. They did a short sale. He paid me off and he was happy as a clam to be rid of her. I helped him out. He was very happy. It’s not on a monthly basis, but he was just ready to be done with it.
You never know what you’re going to get when you buy alone. It comes over and they’re like Easter eggs.
That’s one of the things why I think note investing is a little bit addictive like, “What will this one be?” I think if you can keep that mentality. When things go badly, you don’t want to hurt anybody. If you can still see the fun in it when you’re like, “Bankruptcy. Really, again?”
I’ve gotten almost numb to good and bad news. I don’t know if that’s great or not, but I think of it as like Chutes or Ladders. I’ll have some times where there’s some good surprise where some borrower makes a payment. It’s like, “There’s $1,000 that came out of nowhere,” then I have other ones where something else happens that’s bad and some money disappears.
I think that’s okay. That’s probably a thing. You get into a problem where you have a difficult borrower and you keep fighting them because, “You’re not going to get the best of me,” kind of thing. You could spend a ton of money in legal fees on a property that’s worth nothing because you didn’t want to let that borrower win. I think that’s when you get in trouble.
That’s a losing game. Sometimes on some of the Facebook boards, I see new note investors who maybe have their new note get frustrated over something. In reality, that that shouldn’t happen. You’re right to be not happy, but part of me thinks, “You better let that roll off because otherwise you’re going to have twenty other bad things lurking.” That’s the tip of the iceberg.
I haven’t figured out a good way of being supportive. It’s annoying, but put it in perspective without sounding like I’m trying to rain on their parade.
I haven’t cracked that code either. I ended up not commenting because I want to tell him or give him a heads up like, “It isn’t that bad. There’s more coming.” I don’t know how to do it in a way that I’m not going to come off like a jerk.
I do have to say that when someone goes in and says what I wanted to say, it makes my day. I don’t know if you saw this but there was a post in one of the Facebook groups. This gentleman was talking about where he found a tape with 60 loans, somewhere around there. He was brand new, never bought a note before. He was planning on buying this tape. They wanted 75% of value of the house for the whole pool. Some of the notes hasn’t been paying for ten years. He wondered, “What would be a good price to offer?” and how does he find a JV partner who knows how to manage notes to work with him? You can imagine the responses he got. He didn’t seem to want to believe it. He was like, “You guys are raining on my parade.” No, we’re telling you the truth. There’s a reason why that note hasn’t paid for ten years. It’s probably not going to be in your favor.
In those forums or on BiggerPockets, people aren’t raining on parades too much. If anything, I would say people tend to be overly rosy about things. When I started to in notes, I would run into some problems here and there and I’m like, “I’ve never heard anybody talk about this before,” then you get on the phone and people you know are like, “I’ve seen that. That’s not unusual at all.”
In 2017, that’s when we started the Note Investing Academy. We did that for three reasons. One, we didn’t think many of the education options were thorough enough. They teach you how to get into a note, but not what to do once you were there. Second, they’re all ridiculous expensive. Who needs to pay $25,000 to join a program? That’s as much as you might spend on your first note. We didn’t want to do that. Thirdly, there weren’t many people talking about the bad things that can happen. It’s not from a complaining, whining, terrible perspective but to let you know what note investing is like. The first round of videos that we put together for our program, each one of us did 2 or 3 case studies. One, was fantastic, one was the average everyday note, “Everything was okay. I made a little money and it was good,” and then one that went to hell. We wanted to show people that it’s not all rosy. It can be very profitable and I personally think it’s a heck of a lot of fun. I like being able to help people, but I couldn’t with a straight face tell you that it’s easy all the time. It is what it is.
Maybe tell a little bit more about how Note Investing Academy works. One of the questions people ask me all the time is like, “How do I get started? What do I do?” They ask you about books and there’s some good information, but they only go so far. I haven’t come across a book that takes somebody all the way to buying things. A lot of the training programs are very expensive and I’ve been confused on where to send people.
There are over a hundred videos there, which some people find overwhelming. Sometimes I’m a little hesitant to tell them how many there are. We start from a two-minute video on what a note is. I did a bankruptcy video. I had so much information that I had to break it into two videos because no one would have sat through that. It was about two hours and fifteen minutes on bankruptcy. They’re all different length videos. We divided it into modules for when you would need to know how to understand what’s going on, how to set up your business, how to find notes, who needs to be on your team to help you work them out. There’s a big section on what can go wrong, bankruptcy, contested foreclosure or all the different things. Everybody’s painting a rosy picture. They’re not giving you the how-tos when things get hard. That’s what we wanted to include. All of that is online. You can go in any order you want.
If you’re brand new, I would go one by one, but if you have some experience, you might want to jump in right in the middle. Every month, we do a webinar on whatever. It could be on something that’s going on in the market. We could be interviewing someone. We have a book club once a quarter. We’ve all read a book together. It’s usually not a note investing book. It’s more of a mindset business practices book. We’re doing Atomic Habits. That might be my favorite business book. He is one of the few authors that if you get on his mailing list, what he sends you is pretty good. That adds to the content that we have on the site. We have a private Facebook group where we support each other. If everybody has questions, either Liz and I answer them or someone else in the course answers them. That’s our program. We’re enjoying being able to help people out without taking all the money that they would’ve used on their first note from them to do it.
That’s a little harsh, unless you have an insane amount of capital to deploy. Once you get into, it’s maybe not for everybody. You don’t want to plunk down tens of thousands of dollars and then find out that, “I prefer do something else.”
That’s also inexpensive enough that if you wanted to invest in note funds and you wanted to have someone else managing your money, you’d know what was going on. Especially if you were doing JV relationships when you’re much closer to each individual asset, you would want to know how this guy is running your money.
You can ask the right questions and make sure they’re doing things right. Where do people find that?
It’s on NoteInvestingAcademy.com.
There’s a next question too is, whether there’s a tidal wave of notes coming or not. I know it’s unclear at this point. Nobody knows, but I’m curious, what you think some of the likely scenarios are as we get 6, 12 months out?
It’s interesting because people are trying to predict now and we don’t have the information yet on how things have changed. It feels like we’ve been trapped in the house for the last year, but we haven’t. People talk about there was only a 3% increase in people that didn’t pay their mortgage in March. So what? We didn’t shut down until the end of March. They probably paid their mortgages at the beginning of the month. That’s not an indicator. I don’t even know that April will be an indicator because I don’t know everybody’s businesses. The businesses that did shut down, I don’t know if they had shut down yet. It’s hard to predict. What I would recommend to everybody is as many webinars that you can fit in about people’s predictions on what’s coming, listen to them all.
You’ll hear things that conflict. Hear things that don’t resonate right with you. That’s your indicator that they might not know what they’re talking about. Everybody has different takeaways and different things that stick in their mind. For example, the thing that I’m confused about is the federal reserve rate. The Fed put it in in the 1800s. What it was to do is you had to have enough cash on hand, so there was no run on the bank. If anybody’s ever seen It’s a Wonderful Life, that’s a run on the bank. Your bank doesn’t even have to be in trouble. They never keep as much cash as they have deposited. They have it invested, but they don’t have it on location. If everybody came in on an average day, there would be a run on the bank and it would be a nightmare.
That happened in Manhattan. They cleaned out the ATMs. They had many large cash withdrawals that they ran out of hundreds. The bank itself was fine, but as far as the cash they had in Downtown Manhattan location was rocky.
That doesn’t bode well like, “Excuse me, I’ve got to go raid the ATM.” It’s weird. It started out so we would avoid runs on the bank, but then it became a monetary control tool for them. When the economy was heating up, that’s when they would drop reserve rates. More people would eventually be able to loan more. More people could take out money and contribute to the expansion, start businesses or buy things. If the economy was contracting and things were getting worse, they would raise the rate to make the bank safer. The more you have on hands, the stronger you are as an organization. Also, it’s to slow people down a bit. If inflation is going crazy, you want people to stop spending so much. Now, they’ve lowered the reserve rate to zero, which you’re supposed to do in an expansion. We have 30 million people unemployed. It doesn’t fit. There are a lot of little pockets of typical indicators or strategies that the government uses to help with the economy that don’t make sense.
The whole traditional macroeconomics, Keynesian stuff that I learned, all those little simple equations don’t seem to work anymore. In the last financial crisis, they lowered rates. They did a lot of stimulus to increase the money supply dramatically, which should have caused inflation and it didn’t. Now, we’re printing even more money. It seems like at some point inflation’s going to kick in, but where’s that threshold? I have no clue. The last time I thought we would hit it, we didn’t. I don’t even have a prediction on this and what’s going to happen. I’m curious to see how it pans out. It’s not playing by the rules that I learned in college.
Some people are comparing it to the Great Depression, which I think is a bad comparison because in the Great Depression, all industry stopped. The only thing that saved us was when they did government work programs and put everybody back to work that way. Now everybody went online. How much of business stopped working versus stopped being in person? How’s that going to buffer the economy? There was a huge chunk of businesses that folded that won’t be able to open again. People are unemployed but there’s so many people still functioning almost as if it’s normal. There are grocery stores, Clorox manufacturers and shippers who are stressed out beyond belief doing so much more business than usual. Overall, does that affect the economy?
There’s no precedent for this. I don’t think you can look back at another recession or depression to draw comparisons because this is so unique.
There’s something that I heard when I was listening to a mortgage summit, I can’t remember what the name of it was. They pointed out that the 2008 crash, we can’t even compare it to that because that was caused by the financial markets screwing up whereas this is hitting the financial markets, but they had nothing to do with it. Their reactions and their ability to help and where problems are, it’s different. They can help at this point rather than be like, “Sorry, we screwed up.” I don’t know what you compare it to. I was listening to a webinar that Adam Dayton was doing.
They had some good stuff and I liked the way that they pointed it out. What they did is they picked three indicators. These have always been important indicators in the housing market, “Let’s see what’s going on.” They focused on affordability, current rate of foreclosures and job loss and they compared all the different counties. They came up with 50 counties that are in trouble and they’re worried about. The West did best, which is remarkable to me because nothing is affordable in the West. Try to buy a house in California. For some reason, in that pocket of the country, they have more equity in their house.
You’re saying California is okay this time? They got hit hard last time.
The best time to get started would have been yesterday, but the next best is today. Click To TweetThey will be okay now because, in general, they have more equity in their houses. They’re not going to become underwater very quickly. However, in the Northeast, it’s terrible. I do think that has something to do with how many cases you have as well. Many people are sick in the New York and New Jersey area. It’s rampant in California. In the Northeast, of the 50 counties, they said eighteen of them were from the Northeast. In New Jersey specifically, they said almost the entire state hit their at-risk list because there’s already a high flow of foreclosures. It’s not affordable. That is an incredibly expensive place to live and 25% of the population in New Jersey is already underwater in mortgages. They all get sick. They’re all not working. New Jersey is going to be hit hard. We’re going to have pockets like, “Here’s okay. Here, it’s dreadful. Here, we’ll see how that one’s going.” In 2008, it was the whole market that was a problem. Now, it’s going to be in different places.
Did they talk about what they expect Florida to be this time around?
They did not mention Florida, not specifically. They did say the South, which they were including Florida in. It doesn’t look particularly in a bad situation. They also had twenty markets that they were talking about that have the least risk. The South had eight counties on that list. That’s a pretty good show. They made their biggest contrast between the Northeast and California. That’s what they focused on the most because the Midwest and the South came in together in the middle.
That’s interesting as a note investor because if a lot of things go haywire in New York and New Jersey, those are hard states to operate in. I’ve never worked there. It seems like a big opportunity but more for specialists.
If you can handle the lengthier time and the seemingly archaic court systems and all of that, you could clean up in New York and New Jersey. It’s the pain that you’re comfortable with. I’ve had a couple in New York, New Jersey and Chicago. I’m like, “I’m smart. I figure things out. I can take a lot more stress than most people can. I’ll be fine.” New York and New Jersey, not so much. They were frustrating, but Chicago made me want to shoot someone. Cook County is as bad as everyone has always said Cook County is.
I’ve always stayed away from it because I’ve heard many warnings. I never dipped my toe.
I didn’t believe them. I have a tendency to be like, “If it’s hard, I’m sure I can do it. I’ll prove you wrong.” That was a time when that did not work for me.
I had a hard time in Muncie, Indiana. I should probably stay out of Chicago.
Another thing that they talked about in that webinar, which I thought was cool, was the leading and the lagging indicators to help people that are paying attention to the data figure out what they need to care about. Foreclosure rates, they were talking about that’s a lagging indicator. All of the data is skewed because counties have closed. They’re not recording anything. There could be hundreds of thousands of foreclosures that no one knows about.
I’ve got some that are waiting. It doesn’t show up in the data.
It doesn’t show up anywhere in the data. On the flip side, some people pay attention on, how are real estate agents doing? Are they selling a lot of things? Are they not sending a lot of things? They pay for their annual dues. If every real estate agent in the country stopped working, you would have no idea because they’re still all registered. You pay attention to the systems that they use in their business and see if those are doing okay. He pointed out the companies that support the real estate agents who do a huge volume for cheap price, those will list you for 1% because they’re going to be the first ones that tank. He also pointed to the businesses that support the high producing real estate agents. They get all those extra benefits in the week bonuses and all of that. If those companies are doing well, then the market is shifting, so that the people who produce are taking over a bigger section of the market. I thought that was an interesting way of figuring out what’s going on until we have the actual numbers, until everything is 20/20.
We’re not that far into this, maybe months. This is going to take a long time.
I don’t even think honestly, the payment data for April is going to matter much. It’s April and March, but is that as bad as we’re going to get? I have no idea.
I’ve been watching my portfolio closely at the end of every month. On March, there’s no impact but it was just starting. April was surprisingly good as well. A lot of my borrowers tend to do hourly jobs and a lot of those are going to be close. That impact has to show up. I don’t know if it’s going to be May or June. I’m waiting for that to happened, but I surprisingly haven’t seen it. I haven’t seen more impact, but I assume it’s coming.
One of the other points that they made was there are a ton of people that went and asked for a forbearance plan because they think they’re going to have a problem. It’s not even the people that are having a problem.
I got an email from a borrower’s attorney, “This thing was way delinquent and I started foreclosure.” His attorney said, “Is there something we can work out?” I made a proposal and then it took them a month to get back because the attorney couldn’t get ahold of his borrower. He goes, “There’s everything going on with COVID. It must be COVID.” I’m like, “No, this dude has been a mess way before COVID.” I don’t think so in that case, unless there’s something they could show specifically. I did have one borrower ask to defer two payments to arrear a loan. She sent in a letter from her manager at the restaurant where she works that said, “We’re shut down.” I texted her back right away and said, “No problem.” That makes sense.
There are 30% of people that requested a forbearance plan still made either their March or April mortgage payments. A lot of people that are trying to protect themselves. I have this one borrower. Some of them you have to hold their hand and you have to listen to them complain. He said he needed a forbearance plan because of the virus because his son turned eighteen and now his wife doesn’t get Social Security for him anymore. I think the fact that your son turned eighteen was caused by something that happened a lot longer than COVID.
What’s interesting is my servicer said, “You don’t have to give him a forbearance plan because it’s not COVID related.” First of all, yes, the federally backed loans have to get forbearance plans, but you try to explain to a borrower that watches the news why their mortgage doesn’t qualify as personal people. Second, why would you want to create that drama? This guy is a whiner. All I need is to tell him no and he hires an attorney. It snowballs when it doesn’t need to. What he wanted to do was for the next three months, he wants to make half payments. He still wants to pay me. I thought it was ridiculous when my servicer was like, “You tell him no.”
One of my favorites is when borrowers get angry at the delinquent taxes that they owe. I had one of those. It was like, “The tax bill shouldn’t have been that high.” I was like, “No, I stroke the check for $3,700 to keep it from going to tax sale. You’re unhappy I wrote a check for $3,700. Don’t get mad.”
You set the tax rates and you do all the bookkeeping for the County. You would know if it was wrong.
Thanks so much, Kimberly, for coming on. I appreciate it. Are there any other ways people can get ahold of you?
I’m always on Facebook and I use all three names, Kimberly Banks Fawcett. Thank you very much for having me on. This was fun. It’s always fun to talk to you and I hope you and the whole audience stays safe and healthy.
You as well. Thanks a lot. We’ll see you next time.
Important Links:
- Note Investing Academy
- Diversified Mortgage Expo
- BiggerPockets
- Atomic Habits
- Facebook – Note Investing Academy
- http://www.NoteInvestingAcademy.com/
- http://DiversifiedMortgageExpo.com/
About Kimberly Banks Fawcett
Kimberly Banks Fawcett
Mortgage Note and Real Estate Investor/Educator
Kimberly is a nationally recognized expert in residential mortgage note investing. With over 25 years of residential and commercial real estate investing experience, she’s been focused almost exclusively on first and second mortgage investing since 2012. She enjoys sharing her knowledge with other note and real estate investors so much that she co-founded a residential mortgage note investing education program, Note Investing Academy (NIA). NIA is a comprehensive, video-based training program that focuses on the day-to-day management of a note investment at a fraction of the cost of many other training programs. Kimberly and her business partner, Liz-Brumer Smith, recently took over hosting the Diversified Mortgage Expo (DME), an annual event that focuses on mortgage note and real estate investing with integrity. Kimberly also runs one of the largest note investing Meetup groups in the country, the DFW Note Closers’ Group, which combines online and in-person events so that investors all across the country can participate.
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